(30)
Q.—What was your time taken up by? You said you had not time to sign these receipts?
A.—I had the ordinary duties of the Office, writing up the book, seeing parties receiving money sign in my presence. Now there is a new system and a man before he gets his amount has to sign perhaps twenty times. He will have to sign the voucher in duplicate and the sub-voucher in duplicate.
Q.—Was Alves working in the same room as you were?
A.—No, he worked in a separate room.
Q.—When cheques came, did you not ever give them to Alves?
A.—Light sometimes when a letter comes. Sometimes people sent cheques in an envelope. I would have to send to Mr. Alves or Mr. Madar to ask whether it was for Crown Rent or Water Rate or Taxes or anything of that kind.
Q.—Do you know that Alves was in the habit of receiving money constantly?
A.—No, I did not know, not in cash at least. He might have received it in cheques.
Q.—Don't you think he received it in cash?
A.—No.
Mr. Thurburn.—Payers always went direct to the shroff?
A.—Yes,
Q.—And the shroff brought the particulars to Alves?
A.—Alves was to receive for Crown Rent and pass to the shroff and the shroff would receive the money.
Mr. The Chairman.—You say that you don't think Mr. Alves received money. Alves must have received money in order to make away with the large sums missing?
A.—I doubt very much whether he could make such a large amount.
Mr. Thurburn.—You think that he did not? that these defalcations are not wholly his?
A.—Not to the extent they were stated in the paper—I think it was $59,000.
The Chairman.—That is as far we can ascertain the extent of the defalcations and for this reason. We know the amount of the Rent Roll. Take it for 1891.—According to Alves' own book he acknowledged receiving $191,000—that is what he says he has received. He has paid over a sum about $11,000 less than that amount.
A.—This total of monies received should agree with the ledger.
Q.—Well, it does not agree by about $11,000?
A.—The amount ought to correspond with the ledger.
Q.—We want to find out the total and we have ascertained that in each year about the same amount was taken, and a total sum of about $59,000 is missing. We wish to find out, if we can, how this happened. You say it was no part of Alves' duty to receive money?
A.—No.
Q.—Then how was it that so much money passed through his hands?
A.—He might have received cheques. The only people who used to pay in notes were Messrs. Jardine, Matheson and Co., but that went direct through their compradore.
Mr. Thurburn.—What was the method of receiving the assessed taxes? That was done through another clerk?
A.—Yes, another clerk.
(31)
The Chairman.—And for a long time you signed for taxes?
A.—No, I don't remember. I used to sign for Crown Rent and other receipts but since Mr. Lister's time an order was given for each clerk to sign for his own department.
Q.—About what date was that? Was it before 1888?
A.—I think so. You will find it recorded in the Office.
Q.—Before Mr. Lister gave that order there were three clerks then connected with the giving of receipts including the shroff—there was Mr. Alves, whose duty it was to make out receipts, the shroff, and you?
A.—Yes and Madar.
Q.—You would naturally check Mr. Alves before you signed?
A.—I signed the receipt if I saw the private chop of the shroff.
Q.—Did you not look at the figures?
A.—No, I simply looked at the shroff's chop.
Q.—Who brought the receipt?
A.—The shroff.
Mr. Bird.—The shroff would not know whether the counterfoil and the receipt agreed?
A.—No.
Mr. Thurburn.—But Mr. Alves made out the receipt and the shroff brought it for you to sign, but after Mr. Lister gave this order the only people connected with it were Mr. Alves and the shroff?
A.—Yes.
Q.—And there was no check whatever?
A.—No.
Q.—At that time the Auditor was the Colonial Secretary?
A.—Yes.
Q.—And how did he audit?
A.—He audited the totals, and this book (Rent Roll) is supposed to be out within three months of the close of the year.
The Chairman.—Is there any written order or regulation about that?
A.—No, nothing of the kind; when the local auditor was not here this book was supposed to be out within three months.
Mr. Bird.—As a matter of fact was it out within three months?
A.—I cannot say. I think most part of the year it was up.
Q.—Written up?
A.—Yes.
Mr. Thurburn.—And when the local auditor was here, was it one of his duties to see that the book was balanced?
A.—Yes, every book should balance.
The Chairman.—1890, 1891, and 1892 are not balanced.
A.—You could not expect 1892 to be, 1891 ought to be balanced.
Q.—1890 was not balanced?
A.—That is very queer, I cannot explain that.
Q.—Is it any part of your duty to see that the books were balanced?
A.—No, nothing at all.
::
632
( 30 )
Q.-What was your time taken up by? You said you had not time to sign these receipts ?
A.--I had the ordinary duties of the Office, writing up the book, seeing parties receiving money sign in my presence. Now there is a new system and a man before he gets his amount has to sign perhaps twenty times. He will have to sign the voucher in duplicate and the sub-voucher in duplicate.
Q.--Was Alves working in the same room as you were ?
A.--No, he worked in a separate room.
Q.--When cheques came, did you not ever give them to Alves?
A.--Light sometimes when a letter comes. Sometimes people sent cheques in an envelope. I would have to send to Mr. Alves or Mr. Madar to ask whether it was for Crown Rent or Water Rate or Taxes or anything of that kind.
Q. Do you know that Alves was in the habit of receiving money constantly? A.--No, I did not know, not in cash at least. He might have received it in cheques, Q.---- Don't you think he received it in cash ?
A.--No.
Mr. Thurburn.--Payers always went direct to the shroff'?
A.--Yes,
Q. ---And the shroff brought the particulars to Alves ?
A.-Alves was to receive for Crown Rent and pass to the shroff and the shroff would receive the inoney.
Mr.
The Chairman.You say that you don't think Mr. Alves received money. Alves must have received money in order to make away with the large sums missing?
A.-I doubt very much whether he could make such a large amount, Mr. Thurburn.-You think that he did not? that these defalcations are not wholly his?
A.--Not to the extent they were stated in the paper-I think it was $59,000.
The Chairman.--That is as far we can ascertain the extent of the defalcatious and for this reason. We know the amount of the Rent Roll. Take it for 1891.- According to Alves' own book he acknowledged receiving $191,000-that is what he says he has received. He has paid over a sum about $11,000 less than that amount.
A.--This total of monies received should agree with the ledger.
Q-
-Well, it does not agree by about $11,000?
A.--The amount ought to correspond with the ledger.
We want to find
Q.--It does not. There is the defalcation, you cannot deny it. out the total and we have ascertained that in each year about the same amount was taken, and a total sum of about $59.000 is missing. We wish to find out, if we can, how this happened. You it was no part of Alves' duty to receive ?
say
A.-No.
money
Q.-Then how was it that so much money passed through his hands?
A. He might have received cheques. The only people who used to pay in notes were Messrs. Jardine, Matheson and Co., but that went direct through their compradore.
Mr. Thurburn. What was the nethod of receiving the assessed taxes? That was done through another clerk?
A.--Yes, another clerk.
(31)
The Chairman.--And for a long time you signed for taxes ?
A.--No, I don't remember. I used to sign for Crown Rent and other receipts but since Mr. Lister's time an order was given for each clerk to sign for his own department.
Q.--About what date was that? Was it before 1888? A.--I think so. You will find it recorded in the Office.
Q.-Before Mr. Lister gave that order there were three clerks then connected with the giving of receipts including the shroff-there was Mr. Alves, whose duty it was to make out receipts, the shroff, and you?
A. Yes and Madar.
Q-You would naturally check Mr. Alves before you signed? A.I signed the receipt if I saw the private chop of the shroff. Q.--Did you not look at the figures?
A. No, I simply looked at the shroff's chop. Q-Who brought the receipt?
A.-The shroff.
Mr. Bird. The shroff would not know whether the counterfoil and the receipt agreed ? A.-No.
Mr. Thurburn.--But Mr. Alves made out the receipt and the shroff brought it for you to sign, but after Mr. Lister gave this order the only people connected with it wore Mr. Alves and the shroff?
A.-
-Yes.
Q.
And there was no check whatever?
A.--No.
Q.-At that time the Auditor was the Colonial Secretary?
A.-Yes.
Q.-And how did he audit?
A.-He audited the totals, and this book ( Rent Holl) is supposed to be out within three months of the close of the
year.
The Chairman.--Is there any written order or regulation about that:
A.-No, nothing of the kind; when the local auditor was not here this book was supposed to be out within three mouths.
Mr. Bird. As a matter of fact was it out within three months?
it was up. year A.-1 caunot say. I think most part of the Q.-Written up?
A.--Yes.
Mr. Thurburn.-And when the local auditor was here, was it one of his duties to see that the book was balanced?
A.-Yes, every book should balance.
The Chairman.-1890, 1891, and 1892 are not balanced.
A.--You could not expect 1892 to be, 1891 ought to be balanced.
Q.-1890 was not balanced?
A.-That is very queer, I cannot explain that.
Q-Is it any part of your duty to see that the books were balanced? A.-No, nothing at all.
::
632
No comments yet.
Private notes are available after approval.